January 18, 2021
Debut children’s book author Bernadette Green joins us to discuss picture book based on her own experiences, the collaborative relationship between author and illustrator, and rainbow families (including Steph’s experience as an egg donor).
Links to topics discussed:
- Who’s Your Real Mum? by Bernadette Green and Anna Zobel
- Scribble Books
- Egg donation in Australia
Shout out to:
- Dolly Parton’s ‘Goodnight with Dolly’
- First Time Podcast
Bernadette Green grew up passionate about animals and tree climbing. She dreamed of becoming a writer, but life took her in many different directions. She trained as a youth worker and shiatsu therapist before returning to writing. Bernadette lives in Melbourne with her partner, their two daughters and dog, Coco. Her debut children’s book Who’s Your Real Mum? is out through Scribble Books now.
EPISODE TRANSCRIPT
Steph Van Schilt
You’re the school bell
Bernadette Green
I am the school bell!
Steph
Welcome to Sisteria, a podcast about women and non binary creatives and their experiences creating and consuming arts and culture. I’m your host, Steph Van Schilt. And in today’s episode I speak with children’s book writer, youth worker and trained Shiatsu therapist Bernadette Green. Bernadette lives in Melbourne with her partner, their two daughters and their dog Coco. She grew up passionate about animals and tree climbing and dreamed of one day becoming a writer but life took her in many different directions before she got there, hence the Shiatsu therapist. But finally, earlier in 2020, Bernadette released her debut book. Illustrated by Anna Zobel, and released through scribble kids books, Who’s Your Real Mum? is a children’s picture book that celebrates so called non-traditional families and what lies at the heart of any family life, which is love. I spoke with Bernadette about writing a children’s book based on her own experiences, the collaborative relationship between author and illustrator, and rainbow families generally. I even spoke a little bit about my own experience as an egg donor. I started off by asking Bernadette how she felt about releasing her debut book during lockdown.
Bernadette
It was a bit disheartening really. You know, kinda sort of felt like it didn’t really happen at all. I mean, the publisher was great. And, you know, there were other things on our minds, and, you know, the kids coming out of school, and, you know, there were things that that kind of was the main thing I was disappointed about was the launch, because my youngest daughter was going to read the book at the launch. And so that was, you know, I was really looking forward to, to seeing that, really. And there were things that, you know, you know, knowing it was going to come out, you know, I was quite nervous about, you know, all these things were going to be new, and even down to having to sign a book, which I’ve not done yet because, you know, it was obviously, there wasn’t a launch. But yeah, like I was listening to a podcast where they talk about all the, you know, experiences that are quite new, with the book coming out. And, you know, one of them they were saying that you don’t use your regular signature, you kind of make one up. So, yeah, I’m yet to do that. But I mean, it was, you know, it’s still, you know, the book industry, you know, people are having online launches. And, you know, people have really rallied behind books, and all that’s really positive. It’s just, yeah, like, it’s probably well, ut isn’t the same, I guess, is, you know, physically being able to, you know, get out there and visit book shops, and, you know, see it.
Steph
Did you do any stuff online? Or do you think that because it is a kid’s book, it’s a bit harder to do that?
Bernadette
Because it was released on the 31st of March, and the launch was going to be on the 24th of April. So it was quite, you know, like, we were having conversations, you know, back in March, you know, about what to do about the launch. And at that point, we decided to postpone it till September. Of course, we, we didn’t realize, you know, how long it would be going on for so…
Steph
Who could honestly?
Bernadette
Yeah, yeah. So, I mean, you know, I’ve been going to a lot of online launches. So I’m thinking with our book, because there’s two people involved it’s Anna and my book together. So it might have been a bit trickier. But I guess at that point, we had wanted to kind of just wait and have a physical launch. But…
Steph
Well, I hope something does happen.
Bernadette
Yeah.
Steph
Before we go into your collaborative relationship with Anna, because I find that very interesting, how would you describe the book and how it came about? So for listeners who maybe don’t know…
Bernadette
Yep.
Steph
What is the Book about what inspired you to write it?
Bernadette
So the book is about a little girl called Elvi, and she’s got two mum, and she’s having a friend, his name’s Nicholas, come over for a play date. And now he says to her, we ask so you know, which one’s your real mum. And there will be some, you know, they’re both my real mums. And you know, he’s adamant that the one that had her in her tummy is the real mum. And, you know, she goes into these kind of fantasy kind of responses on who her real mum is. And she’s, you know, because she’s been asked this question before. So, you know, she kind of answers things like, she can do a handstand on one finger. And at first, he’s kind of trying to work out, you know, which mum is that, and it becomes kind of more fantastical until he gets, you know, a little bit annoyed. And then it kind of comes down to her talking about what makes a real mum, you know, there’s a mums who, you know, they’re putting me to bed and thinking, you know, holding me when I’m scared. So, yeah, he finally, well, you know, gets it and…
Steph
Was inspired by your own experience, or what inspired you to write it?
Bernadette
Yeah. So, um, so I have two children with my female partner. And the question, Who’s Your Real Mum was a question that they were asked at school, you know, in different versions of that question. And, you know, it’s quite a confronting question, because, you know, it’s implying, of course, but, you know, one of the mothers, you know, isn’t real. For the kids, you know, their family, you know, particularly pre-primary school, you know, their families, you know, it’s just what their family is, you know, pretty kind of ordinary. And so with my partner, one of us birthed, we’ve got two children, and we birth one child each, so you know, who their biological mother is, you know, that’s part of their story. And that’s up to them to tell whoever they want. But that’s very different being, you know, the biological mother is very different to the question of who your real mother is, and the idea that, you know, the biological mother is more of a mother. And, you know, that’s quite confronting for a child really, because, you know, the implication is that, you know, the, the mothers aren’t equal,
Steph
No, of course, and I would like to get to the discussion about kind of families and biology and chosen their families and rainbow families a bit later. But I did find it interesting with this book, the way that it uses kids curiosity. So kids are asking, what, where, why, who, at all times?
Bernadette
Yeah.
Steph
But like you said, it, it speaks to something bigger. It’s your children’s experience and their life and the fact that they have to respond to that. And I think that the way that you’ve both taken that curiosity, created magic around it, but there is like, a serious underlying message here.
Bernadette
Yeah, that’s right. And, and, as you were saying, you know, kids are really curious, so and there’s nothing wrong with that at all, you know, but I guess the fact that it can be hurtful for the child who’s got same sex parents, you know, so I’m hoping with this book that answers that curiosity inkids, you know, in a in a very gentle, nice, humorous, you know, loving sort of way, because, you know, it is perfectly natural to be curious. I mean, of course, the more books that are in schools, the more you know, movies with same sex parented families or, you know, the variety of families that they’re around, you know, kids are kind of exposed to them through media, the more that kids don’t, you know, just think about, you know, who’s got you in their tummy, and you know, that that’s making a real parent.
Steph
Absolutely. And I think that…how much was that idea of inclusivity and representation, a driving force for you in terms of books, because I know that there are quite a few kids books that are moving towards more activist, advocacy lenses, but I’ve also spoken to friends of mine, who are same sex parents, and they talk about while their daycares or their kindergartens are trying to be more inclusive, they do still read a lot of the mama dada books, they do still, even if it is like a family of possums, it’s still a nuclear family as it was known in the 1950s. How much was that like a propelling force for you to try and kind of change the conversation in the field?
Bernadette
Yeah, well, um, of course, and it was, you know, quite natural for me to write a story like this, because, you know, that’s our reality. But, you know, there really isn’t a great deal of books out there, you know, with same sex parented families, like you were saying, with your friends and at schools, like my daughter was saying to me recently, that when she went to school, she found it really confusing. Just the fact that her family never popped up in any of the stories. And it did actually make her wonder about it family. So, recently, I learned that England are bringing in, I think it’s this year where all schools all primary and secondary schools have to have diverse forks with rainbow families from primary school onwards, and they have to discuss it, discuss sexuality. And in Scotland, they’re actually running classes in high school on the history of gay rights. And so, you know, when, you know, Australia’s we’re quite behind in that way, but you just imagine, you know, if that was the case that just, you know, wouldn’t be a big deal, you know, like kids would see their families if kids had, you know, if they were questioning their sexuality as well, you know, there are stories there to say you’re okay, you know, this is, you know, just part of the human experience,
Steph
Do you think we’ll ever get there in Australia?
Bernadette
Yeah, I think so. I mean, you know, we do drag our feet a little bit, but, you know, we’ve got same sex marriage now. So that was something and, you know, I mean, that was really positive for my kids. I mean, you know, we’re not married ourselves. But, you know, what we’re saying about there wasn’t much representation at school. And it wasn’t something that, you know, they, when they were little, we took them to rainbow playgroup, and we, you know, we go on a camp each year, but for them, you know, their everyday life kind of at school, it was almost like, it didn’t really exist, families like them, you know, there might be a few families, but not many. So for them the experience of the rallies, and even though the plebiscite, you know, I didn’t agree with it. I mean, you know, could have certainly done without it, but just having, you know, people come up and be supportive to them, and the people to be discussing it and the people that we were knowing, you know, they were supportive. So it was most of it was positive for them, you know, what they were hearing from people, but they started to think like, you know, wow, you know, like, you know, we’re okay, like, you know, a lot of people actually think we’re okay, so it was good to kind of almost get it out in the public a lot more.
Steph
I feel like a lot of people don’t realise that sometimes asking questions can overstep boundaries, like, even having opinions in that discussion is hurting other people. And I think that the way that you framed this book as a kid’s book is really important. I think, when the adult start kind of prying into…
Bernadette
Yeah.
Steph
You know, Who’s the Real Mum, because adults ask those questions too right!
Bernadette
Yeah yeah.
Steph
Is that something that you still experience?
Bernadette
Oh, yeah. Yeah. I mean, you know, we’ve had it in even extended family where, you know, people might ask me just about my biological child. And, yeah, you know, like I was saying before, you know, biology is very different to who you parent is. And, you know, that is, that is just a part of it. Yeah, you know, I think, I think it’s a pretty common experience, that people, you know, they want to know, you know, they sometimes presume that you’re going to be closer to the child that that is your biological child, and, you know, families are all different and all the same, aren’t they really. I mean, you know, sometimes you get along with one of your children, you feeling closer, and sometimes another, but people are curious. And, you know, that’s natural. But, you know, this, people will share what they want to share. And there’s enough information out there too, that people can find out. Not not, I mean, personal information, but just about, you know, how these, you know, families that are different to your on your own how they kind of work.
Steph
Right, we spoke a little bit ahead of recording, and I mentioned to you that I have my own experience with a rainbow family. I am in a heterosexual relationship, but I was an egg donor for my best friend who now has a 16 month old little boy.
Bernadette
Lovely.
Steph
And yeah, so that was quite the experience. And I too have experience of people asking questions, or calling me names like referring to me as a mother a lot.
Bernadette
Yeah, yeah.
Steph
I didn’t carry the baby I wasn’t a surrogate. That was something that was off the table for me. That’s a whole different thing. But I don’t think I think people are genuinely interested because there are it is a different way of being in Australia. I think that a lot of the representation we see is perhaps American inspired and people think it’s like a commercial surrogacy or commercial donation process. But that’s not the case here. For me, and I know that this is your interview, I promise like (laughs)…for me, we went through it was like well over a year, two years of interviews with psychologists and counselors and getting approval by government and and then I had the medical treatment, which wasn’t great for me. I didn’t have a great experience and I did two rounds of IVF. But eventually there’s this beautiful baby with two parents who adore him.
Bernadette
Yeah.
Steph
And I am his auntie. Yeah, a lot of people try to refer to me as a mama. But that’s not what Parenthood is, like, I did something that was an altruistic gesture that took like, it didn’t take a lot. I’m not saying I’m perfect and selfless but it was a lot.
Bernadette
Yeah.
Steph
And it’s given this family, like, he’s their child. Like, I just don’t. People are so confused by that.
Bernadette
Yeah, and, you know, that’s lovely. And I think the same thing with, you know, my kids, um, you know, you know, we went through a clinic, and the thing was I remember on it. I mean, you know, you’re right about the language. You know, I remember saying something at the clinic about the father. And they said to me, don’t refer, you know, to him as the father, you know, it’s a donor, you know, and, you know, because it, it is kind of wrapping your head around something that, you know, we don’t necessarily grow up with, but then, you know, as my kids grow up, you know, they have their own story around it, you know, so sometimes they’ll talk about, you know, their dad, they’ll call him their dad, because that’s the language for them that other kids are using. So
Steph
I also think it’s different with women carrying a baby, women giving an egg. So I was confronted when people were like, how is your baby or?
Bernadette
Yeah,
Steph
You’re the mom is like, absolutely not.
Bernadette
And that’s the same sort of thing where, you know, we grow up with certain language around, you know, you know, what makes a parent and our ideas and your experience, which is, you know, your business to tell or not tell, you know, the same thing. And I, you know, I kind of think people, you know, it’s different with kids, it’s natural for the kids to be curious. But you know, as adults, we’re all curious about lots of different things. But we know that there are some things we just don’t ask, and you have a right to share it if you want to. But, you know, there are some things that maybe people you know, it’s nice if people are a bit sensitive about it, because you don’t really know where the other person’s coming from with it. You know, I think it’s lovely, what you did, and it sounds like he’s got some lovely dads.
Steph
He sure does! I reckon that your book could be good for adults too, that ask these questions to be honest. Like, it’s, it’s a useful tool in that way, so people can start thinking about it. In the, like the ways that you’ve put down on paper, but you’ve also it is a picture book. So while I think it would be good for some adults, and it is primarily aimed at children of what age is it aimed at?
Bernadette
Yeah, at some age ranges between about three and five, but um, picture books, you know, they, my kids would still, we will still reading them picture books up till they were like, seven, you know, as well as chapter books, but you know, they still have their favorites. In fact, I went through them recently. And, you know, my youngest who is 12 didn’t want me to part with any of them. So, I’m a bit of a hoarder so it’s easy for me to just say, Okay, I agree. I was trying to make room on the shelf for some more books with anyone.
Steph
You can always get a new shelf.
Bernadette
Yeah, that’s right. (laughs)
Steph
Fill it up with more books. So did you ever, is this something that you’ve always wanted to do writing a children’s book? Or is it something that came a bit later? Because you obviously mentioned it’s your debut? Did you… what was the process? Like, you went back to study, right?
Bernadette
Yeah. So I mean, I wanted to…so I’m a bit of a procrastinator, I think, but I wanted to write since I was a kid. And, you know, I just had a big imagination. And so yeah, I was quite keen to do that when I got older. But I came from a family where we didn’t well, none of us finished high school. And my dad was a factory worker. So I worked in factories for years and then, actually, well my younger brother ,it was quite sad, he died in an accident and I went to study, I kind of basically ran from the grief straight into a youth work course. And, you know, the idea I could save young people and so I did that for a while, but everything I did in essays and things I’d kind of turn it into some kind of story and yeah, so yeah, I worked in with young people with disabilities for years. And then I was interested in health as well. So I basically floated around these different things, I studied shiatsu, but it was always going to be, you know, I’d always say, Oh, one day I’m gonna write, you know, one day, I’ll do this. And you just get to the point where you’re thinking, Oh, my gosh, I’m getting older, you know, this is, you know, either I stop saying, I’m going to do it, or I do it. And so when I was pregnant with our daughter, I kind of thought that I would have, you know, this idea that you’re going to have a child and have lots of time, I thought, well, I may as well, you know, study and, you know, do this writing gig. So, yeah, so I started writing, and I’ve got, you know, a few manuscripts that, you know, are unfinished. And but, you know, most of my writing is for teenagers and middle grade and, you know, picture books for kids.
Steph
Was that just an innate interest? Or do you think that that is driven from that background in youth work? Do you think that it’s those two things colliding?
Bernadette
Yeah, it could be, you know, I’ve always liked working with children. And, you know, yeah, I suppose the sort of the, you know, the fantasy for the middle grade that I’m writing has a strong fantasy element. This picture book has a strong, you know, it’s quite fantastical as well. So, yeah, I think that kind of, you know, the imagination of kids I find really appealing. And, you know, the dragons, and you know, all those wonderful things you can do. So, yeah, so I guess it makes sense to me to write for children.
Steph
So you’re currently working on a manuscript at the moment?
Bernadette
Yeah, middle grade manuscript, and a picture book manuscript. But the middle grade one I’ve been doing for the last five years, I’m hoping to have it finished at the end of the year.
Steph
And what does it look like to develop a picture book manuscript? Because I know, personally, I have no experience in children’s publishing. Um, but for my understanding is you wrote this and then were pair it up with the illustrator. Can you talk about that collaborative relationship a bit?
Bernadette
Yeah, that’s right. Yeah. So yeah, I wrote the manuscript. And so you know, and I actually met Kate O’Donnell, who’s a production editor at Scribble Kids publishing, she came into a class that I was in, and, you know, the, this was when I was studying professional writing and editing at RMIT. And they’re always telling us, you know, put yourself forward, you know, pitch to people. And anyway, so, basically, I asked her during the break, and I wasn’t very good at pitching to people, but I thought, I’m just gonna ask her if I can, you know, tell her about the book. And I did, and you know, the manuscript, and I sent it in. And yeah, I can’t draw. So the thing is that, you know, if you writing a manuscript, the publisher finds the illustrator. And at Scribble they’re really particular in the match, you know, they felt there was a particular style to the writing that they wanted to find an illustrator who, you know, had a style that they thought would go with her. And so yeah, they found Anna. And so I didn’t meet Anna till the book was actually at the printer.
Steph
Did that make you a bit nervous when you’re handing over your words? And obviously, you have faith, you’ve signed with this publisher. And you’re like, I believe in you, this is what you do. But there’s got to be an element as a creative where you’re like, I’ve handed over my words, and you’ve got this vision as to how, like, the publisher has a vision, but you also have a vision. Were you worried they weren’t gonna match up?
Bernadette
Yeah. Yeah. Well, they we didn’t actually sign the contract until we’ve been matched. They wanted to wait until there was a match. So, um, and the thing was, I like I, you know, yeah, there was a part of me that thinking, I really hope I like, you know, the illustrations and I’m so happy with them. I just think they’re so beautiful. Yeah.
Steph
Oh that’s great.
Bernadette
So, so, you know, it’s just very, um, you know, like, you know, when the kids, sorry, I’ll just digress for a minute, but when my kids were a little, like, I loved getting picture books for them, and looking at them. And I was just as attracted, oh, you know, visually, you’re first attracted to the pictures, you know, the cover of the picture book. And so, for me, I just really was hoping that there would be a really good melding of the pictures and the words and so yeah, so it’s just really happy with you know, who they put me with and yeah, so they sent me early on, so I can’t remember the timeline, but it was, you know, I think it was well over a year, like a year and a half of working, you know, on and off on it, where they sent me her early character sketches. And then there were different scenes. So like, I might not hear from them for a couple of months, you know, while and Anna was working on things, I think she, you know, put together a different, you know, a few different concepts. So, I didn’t even see them all, they I didn’t realize I hadn’t even seen them all, some that, you know, they kind of worked with Anna, you know, whether that would work or not, but the ones I did see, you know, like, once the characters were decided on then….one was, I think set it so there were different settings initially. So one was one idea she had was, had a like an amusement park, and another one that she sent through all the thumbnail sketches was at a camp ground. And the thing was, they always, um, you know, asked me for my opinion, which was great, you know, and so I mean, and to be honest, like, it felt weird at first, because I thought, I don’t know anything about like, illustrating so who am I to, you know, kind of say anything, but, you know, what I realized was, so, you know, asking me how I fit it in with the story. And so, I think that the camp ground one, the fantastical elements went in it, so the dragon, and I was really attached to that idea of, you know, there being a dragon in the book, and there being some of that, and, you know, they took that on and, and, you know, like, I think Anna’s you know, she’s very talented. So very, you know, lucky about, Yeah, having her, so. Yeah. So and then, of course, as we worked through it, as the illustrations started to, you know, then because I’ve done an early edit of the words and then, you know, once the setting was kind of fixed, you know, we lost a few more words, as well. And then there was another scene that they asked me to write. So I, you know, so there were a few kind of things added, but then, you know, and then maybe taken away again, as it was worked out, so there’s one really lovely page where the energy of the story changes where, you know, she, you know, Nicholas has kind of, you know, hit the height of his frustration, and now, you know, just wants to know, who the real mom is. And, you know, the book kind of softens, and he’ll be says, I’ll tell you, and, and then there’s just this beautiful page with no words, you know, and just have them, you know, they’ve hopped off the swing, and they just heading home and, and then, you know, she starts to go into there, who the real mom is, you know, the one who’s holding me when I’m scared, and, you know, putting me to bed and all this…
Bernadette
What did you because your kids are a bit older now, what did they think of the book? Were they excited by it, by the concept and the thought that it was coming out?
Bernadette
Yeah, yeah, they were very excited about it. And, you know, like, you know, my youngest, you know, she feels like that, she looks like a character, you know, Elvi, she feels that it Elvi is her and, you know. They’re really excited, and I think they’re happy to see, because, um, you know, there’s, I think, you know, as a picture book, it’s probably only the words, you know, there’s not that many, you know, and so, I can’t remember how 460 or something, but, you know, it’s about getting them, right, and, you know, for them to kind of see that you can work on something that, you know, you can work on it really hard, even though it doesn’t seem like a big thing, and then it, you know, you kind of get this beautiful end product. And, you know, I think they’re really happy with it. And you know, like I said to my youngest one was going to, you know, read it at the launch, but you know, I hope she reads it somewhere, some day.
Steph
And I think also it’s beautiful, that it’ll go on and have more life now. It’ll have a life out in the world, and it’ll influence other kids like your kids.
Bernadette
Yeah.
Steph
And it’ll have a greater impact, which I think…
Bernadette
Yeah and I think they’re glad that this story is there because they relate to it, and it’s really their story. So, you know, you know, they, like I said to you earlier, you know, they’ll both asked that question. And so I think it’s, you know, when I wrote it, it was kind of healing you know, almost like I was working in a little bit healing for me as well. You know, just because it’s it’s…you feel for your kids but you really you know, it’s quite confronting you know, the idea that people kind of questioning…I mean, no, no, I’m not kids, I mean, like I said, I’ve had it from adults, but you kind of get, like I said, it’s a bit healing kind of writing it, but also for them to kind of see that, you know, you can have this experience. And, you know, particularly for my old one, because she did have one particular child who was a bit like, the child in the book, who just really just wanted an answer, you know, and, you know, would ask her on different times, you know, but, you know, for them to see that he can take something that maybe, is a bit of a negative, and you can turn it into something beautiful and educational. did you
Steph
Did you ask your kids before you wrote the book, or did you discuss it with them?
Bernadette
Ah yeah. So, you know, we yeah, we did talk about it. And, you know, my, my oldest daughter will kind of joke and say, you know, I’m your like, but you know, your inspiration and you’ve got to write, you know, they want to kind of appear in, you know, other books and stories, and…
Steph
They’re your muse.
Bernadette
Yeah, that’s right. They’re my muse. Though they were younger when I wrote it, of course. So…
Steph
How old are they now?
Bernadette
So they’re 12 and 16. So? Yeah. I wrote it in 2015.
Steph
That is a big difference between well, I guess what they’ve grown up while you’ve written this book.
Bernadette
Yeah. You know, yeah, though, you know, yeah, very different people there. But, uh, you know, they are at the end of the day, they’re proud.
Steph
Oh I love that. While we’re talking about kids. And obviously, you just said your kids are a bit older. But we do have an Arrogant Aunt question, which is the segment where we answer listener questions with an authority we just don’t have. It’s an exercise in imposter syndrome for all of us. So we have a question from Nikki, which is: “Do you have any advice for people working from home with young kids in this current climate, for lack of a better term? I have a four year old and a two year old, and it’s a daily struggle. Any advice would be appreciated?” So obviously, you’re in Victoria as well?
Bernadette
Yeah, yeah.
Steph
As am I. So, trapped in the house only can go out an hour, once a day at the moment, which is for everyone’s safety, and I’m all for that, but I am counting my blessings that I don’t have children, I’ve only got a couple of dogs, and they are enough.
Bernadette
Laughs.
Steph
So my heart absolutely goes out to anyone that has kids at home and are trying to work from home or just to have any semblance of, I guess, sense of self. And just to be able to do their own work like to have that space. How are you finding it? Do you have any advice? Obviously, your situation is a bit different with the kids being a bit older. But how are you finding it at the moment? Because it’s tough.
Bernadette
Yeah it’s tough. And look, I really feel for people with little kids, because, you know, they just want to be around you all the time, a little bit different to when they’re 12 and 16. SSo, you know, I think it’s really important to look after your own mental health, you know, and I mean, of course, you’re talking about trying to get some work done. I mean, gosh, you know, it is, it’s a tough gig, really, isn’t it? I suppose the house is just gonna get turned in the cubby houses and things like that, isn’t it? You know, the, when my kids were little, you know, the only small, tiny bit of advice, and it’s probably not really relevant now anyway, but, you know, I tried to make screens work for me. You know, I was quite happy to use the TV as a babysitter at times. But I did try and limit it so that I only ever turned it on when I wanted it on. When I needed it timeout, I turned it on, I wouldn’t say you know, so when they were little, it didn’t get turned on so much when they wanted, it just got turned on when I wanted it. And and it worked really well, because it meant that, yeah, that would just feel really absorbed by it. But, you know, I think it’s it’s really, I think about looking after your mental health and being kind to yourself, because, you know, you’re not going to get the same work done. It’s just not possible. I mean, I hope employers you know, really take that on.
Steph
Absolutely. It’s interesting you say that about screen time, a lot of the parents that I know who were very much like, no screen time until they’re X age or no screen time, are like, we’ve given it to screen time, screen time is happening. Like, here’s an iPad, go into the other room. Just take it and go.
Bernadette
Yeah. Yeah, yeah. No, it’s not a time to try and be, you know, some idea of an ideal parent, you know.
Steph
And I mean, I think the flip side, obviously I’m talking from observation, like I can’t stress that enough. But when we had the gap between lockdowns, I did go and see my brother, who has a, my nephew is turning four next month, and my niece has just turned one. And he and his partner was saying, it’s actually been a really beautiful time for their family. Because often they’re like, in and out of the house, and they’re going here and there. And just to take they, they try as much as possible when they’re not tearing their hair out to take stock of the fact that they are having these bonding experiences and that they are together without any external kind of, other than work, but kind of external social pressures to see people and do things with other people. It’s just time for your family. And I thought…
Bernadette
Yeah. No, and I think during the first lockdown, because it goes up and down, doesn’t it? Goes in waves, the different emotions you’re feeling. And during the first lockdown, I mean, all my sister and brother in law, they’ve got little kids, so the kids were loving it. So I think for the you know, for them, their kids, uh, you know, babies up to four, but, you know, the kids are the kids themselves are loving it. And, and in our situation, I think we did a lot of jigsaws, you know, there was a lot of nice time, as well as kind of a pressure to, oh, my gosh, we should be playing more games, we should be doing more, you know, we’ve got this time. This time it feels for me, I’m finding it a bit harder, I think, you know, maybe a lot of people are, mean it is stage four, but it’s because like it the first time around, I felt like I had to kind of sort the house. And this time, I feel like it’s more about trying to dig a bit deeper and find a bit more kind of, I don’t know, mental kind of relief. And, you know, for the kids, like I do feel for teenagers as well, because, you know, they’re very interested in their peers, my 12 year old really found it quite tough, because, um, you know, she misses her friends. You know, she loves her family, but she did tell us that she was a bit sick of us, which is fair enough, you know. My 16 year old, she’s a bit of a homebody. So, you know, that’s okay. But I think, you know, there are a few teenagers that are that are struggling with that isolation from their friends. And, you know, and so, you know, I guess like I just before the stage four came in, you know, went out and bought the 12 year old a skateboard. So she’s been skating that up and down the house, and, you know, just trying to find things that, you know, because their school is, you know, they’re still doing, remote learning is quite tough, you know, because I homeschooled the kids for a year and I actually found that easier, because you’re kind of you know, what they’re doing, and you can look, they were younger, maybe that’s why but with remote learning
Steph
But would have been setting the…
Bernadette
Yeah, I was setting it. And look admittedly, there was no lockdown. So we could ride the bikes. And we could go, I mean, of course you can still ride a bike. But you know, we also had freedom. But you know, this one, like I’m setting the timer to let them know when one class is finishing and another starting and I feel like a timekeeper.
Steph
You’re the school bell!
Bernadette
I am the school bell. And this time around the school has made the classes shorter, and they’re trying to, you know, be more responsive to, you know, not making it too hard on the kids. But of course, they’re putting their work out there for like hundreds and hundreds of kids. So, you know, they’re catering to so many different types of kids and, you know, there’s no way it can suit them all. And so, you know, I feel like this time, and for this age, it’s more, I think it’s more about kind of making sure the kids are okay, and that they’re kind of mentally okay, they’re still they’re not just doing schoolwork that they’re getting out because we’ve it’s we’ve only just come out a winter as well. It’s really easy for the whole day to go on and like, you know, you haven’t been outside and you know, my youngest hasn’t even wanted to go outside at first she was worried she was gonna catch Coronavirus and then you know, the more you see it and you’re sitting in front of the computer, the harder it is, but she’s been a lot, you know, she’s been a lot more you know, getting a skateboard and me harassing her to make sure you know, we’re going on walks. And we’ve got a dog so you know, that helps having to take her out.
Steph
While I wouldn’t advise it everyone gets a dog, maybe I recommend that some of you should.
Steph
But in terms of things that I think everyone should be engaging with, I’m going to do this Sisteria Shout Out, which is an opportunity for myself and the guests to recommend a piece of art or culture that we’ve been enjoying that’s been giving us joy during what is a pretty, not so joyful time. Personally, I’m just going to start with in light of everything we’ve been discussing today, keeping kids occupied obviously I don’t have direct experience with that. But what I do have direct experience with is loving Dolly Parton. And Dolly has created a YouTube series where she is reading kids books. So, it’s Good Night with Dolly. It’s her reading kids books. I don’t need to say anything else with that, too. I think it speaks for itself. It’s Dolly Parton reading kids books, like you can put your kid in front of it. You can enjoy it too. Dolly Parton, complete treasure. Highly recommend. Bernadette, what do you have for us?
Bernadette
Laughs.
Bernadette
So I’ve got the First Time Podcast, which is hosted by Kate Mildenhall and Katherine Collette. And this podcast is great for, so it’s called the First Time because it’s about the first time you publish a book. And it’s great for anyone who’s interested in writing or reading so they start each podcast talking about…so when they started it, I think it’s in its third season now. So when they started it, Kate had already had one book out, and Katherine was in the process of her book was basically at the printer, and she was gearing up for the launch. So and now they’re both on to the second book. So throughout the season, they’re chatting about the whole process. And like I mentioned briefly before, you know, they even talk about the author’s signature, and, you know, they laugh, they got a good relationship together. And, and then they have an author come on and chat, but they kind of de-mystify and you know, they’re quite happy to kind of be vulnerable themselves, the things that, you know, kind of came up for them. And so they kind of demystified the whole kind of process. And I recommend it to anyone who’s interested in writing or reading.
Steph
That’s a great one. I think that a few of our listeners will be interested in that. And I do know that a lot of people get very inspired by that. So it’s both educational and inspiring. And I think right now, the more we can do to inspire one another, without the pressure on
Bernadette
Yeah, yeah.
Steph
the better, the. Thank you so much for taking the time to talk to us today or talk to me today. It’s only me. I keep forgetting, on Siteria. It’s been an absolute pleasure. Please stay safe and take care of your family.
Bernadette
Thanks so much Steph. It was really great to chat to you today.
Steph Sisteria is supported by the Melbourne City Council Arts Grants Program and recorded on the lands of the Wurundjeri People of the Kulin nations. We pay our respects to the elders past and present and to the elders of all the lands this podcast reaches. Subscribe to Sisteria everywhere and follow us @sisteriapod. Links to everything discussed in the episode are available at sisteriapodcast.com. Our theme music is by Rainbow Chan, the song is called Last and it’s from her album Spacings. Thanks so much for listening, stay safe and we hope to tune in again soon.